When you are looking at total permant losses for both sides from all causes the numbers are much more robust. There are a large number of problems with this type of resarch. They indeed have in the Korean War in 1950. In the late 1960s, the Army began shutting down all its FFRDCs: SORO/CRESS, which privatized and then shut down, HumRRO, which privatized and is now effectively defunct, and RAC. The ORO report only covers the first 6 months. The ORO/RAC reports can be gotten from GRC (located in Tyson's Coner, VA), but I am not sure what the procedure is. Maybe they summmerize all togeather in the latter report. About half of the engagements took place at ranges of 350 yds or less, and at this distance the M26 had a hit probability of 85%, somewhat higher when firing HVAP and somewhat lower when firing APC ammunition. That perimeter was steadily being reinforced, with an eye toward an eventual breakout and counteroffensive. Plus troops would have more experiance operating and maintaining these newer tanks. hide. Some made it as far as Seoul and were available in the battle for Seoul after Inchon--maybe a company or two. Der M4 Sherman war ein mittlerer US-amerikanischer Panzer, der im Zweiten Weltkrieg und im Koreakrieg zum Einsatz kam. Interestingly the report flatly contradicts Zaloga & states that in its opinion the Sherman M4A3(W)76E8 was equally effective as the M26 & M46 in Korea. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. Um gegen den sowjetischen T-34 bestehen zu können, brauchte die Wehrmacht eine schnelle Lösung. Looking through the ORO report I do not yet see US tank type des to NK tanks des. Perhaps these tanks were not operational much anyways. I’d argue the terrain probably favored the Sherman more so than the T-34. Where the T-34 was found, the Pershing reigned supreme. Be warned it's 28mb & doesn't show a progress bar. The M46 in korea consummed gas at almost double the rate as the sherman. In my opinion, the most useful and producive period of ORO was in the early 50s. Or maybe the T34 crews were avoiding the UN during this period as well. Mobility was poor in comparison to the T-34/85 & the M4A3, the M46 appears to have had especially poor cross country performance due to power loss in the transmission & relatively high ground pressure at 13.3psi. The total number of T34s committed appears to be 600 all of which APPEAR to be lost according to the report. DEMOCRACY (and proper manufacturing) IS NON NEGOTIABLE, Dont worry we have other 400 tanks tovarish. I am only looking at the info jeff provided from you over a year ago. Most of these replacement tanks never made it to the front cuz they were blown-up by the U.S. Air Force while still loaded on trains. The report notes that with a UN tank strength of approx 1200 in Korea, and an estimated mileage of 25 miles per tank per day, the difference in gasoline consumption between a hypothetical use of M4A3 & M46 tanks alone would be 60,000 gallons excess per day for M46 tanks, or 1,800,000 gallons per month. Roughly M4 40%,M24 55%, M26 60% and M46 50%. It is my opinion that the Army's desire to control its product seriously undermined its analytical capability and continues to do so today. As long as we don't consider tanks being knocked out by a sub calibre tungsten round or freindly/captured fire. The sherman did have a bit larger number of permant losses compared to the M26 but very close. Furthermore, they seem to have been victims of a rash of freak hits. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. The UN lost large numbers of tanks during the retreat from the north due to mechancal breakdown rather then enemy action. No typical tank destroyed ratios. Our neighbor was tank repairman during the Korean war. If this is true it points out how difficult it is to estimate enemy tank str, losees and cause. All these tanks were American, since British armour did not engage enemy tanks or anti-tank guns during this period. The quality of materials used were "ample for the job" with some being "better than those used in American tanks". 33 comments. The M46 appears no better, with 67 mechanical failures in the same period out of a total strength of 188 - a 36% loss rate, in comparison to 30 combat losses. Quite where Zaloga derived his M26 being 3x more effective than the Sherman remains something of a mystery. Im Jahr 1943 begutachteten US-Spezialisten sowjetische Panzer. The US tanks knocked out 97 T-34/85 tanks and claimed a further 18 as probables. P.S. A much superior subcaliber ammo would've also contributed, since the most dangerous targets between attackers would've been the armoured vehicles. Here.... better not saying. However, given its better sloping design and thicker armor, the T-34 had better armor than the Sherman and was more survivable. Although M24 light tanks were not a match for Russian built T34's, US medium tanks destroyed T34's as a rate of approximately seven for every US tank destroyed by them. Even from mid 43 on the ger usually cut thier PROVEN claims in half when doing operational and stragtegic planning and this figure was pretty close to reality. Third hand, hersay infomation. A study conducted after the war counted 119 tank-vs-tank actions during the war, 104 involving US Army tank units and 15 involving the Marine 1st Tank Bn. Only 24 of these 119 engagements involved more than three North Korean tanks and most were small-scale encounters of platoon size or less. The Pershing in Korea: A study conducted after the war counted 119 tank-vs-tank actions during the war, 104 involving US Army tank units and 15 involving the Marine 1st Tank Bn. T34's destroyed M24 5 1M4A3 7 24M26 3 31M46 1 18. Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. 2. For the type of analysis we do at TDI, we find some of the early ORO reports useful. It had years to become tested. The only real instance of WW2 era Shermans fighting Soviet tanks was during the Korean War, where the E8 variant came up against the T34–85. The T-34-85 was the tank the Soviets needed and it worked for them, so I’m not going to bash it. 3. Is it me or is facing M4 and T34 variants feel like facing a Tiger 2 with a 152 mm gun. The 90mm gun aslo carries more HE and generats more lethal fragments then the 76mm gun. Nothing else beyond this date no ratios etc. The other tanks also carry a 90 mm gun which will be better against other tanks then the shermans 76mm gun. on a serious note, which tank was better? Of the 57 hits whose position are known, 20 (35%) were on the front of the tank, 34 (60%) were on the sides, and 3 (5%) on the rear. A panzer kommander once said: "A German panzer is worth 9 American Shermans, the problem is that there is always a 10th Sherman. Arm cars in an att would probably be lost at an even higher rate then tanks. The North Korean People’s Army (NKPA) had almost everything going its way during the earliest Korean War battles. If the reserch teams are acccuate we have 11 des US tanks of all types to 42 des korean tanks and SP guns. The tanks studied were the M24 Chaffee, the M4A3 Sherman, the M26 Pershing, & the M46 Patton. If the NK did lose all 600 t34's by the end of the report time with the exact same porortions lost according to the reserch teams. Tanks des on rail lines in northern korea may not have been couted by teams around in oct. The M26 and M46 were involved in nearly half of these, the M26 in 38 actions (32%), and the M46 in 12 actions (10%). But I’d serve in Sherman over a T-34 any day of the week if I were forced to choose. The 10 to 15 ton larger tanks might be nice to have but whith little armour remaining they are more costly to produce and operate. I believe this has hurt the Army in the long run and has wasted tax payers money. It also seems to indicate that no tanks were encoutered towards the end up to the end of jan. Of course the report is not entirly clear about this either. 120 tanks spread all over NK is not as conc as 240 spread accros the narrow parts or around pusan. The relatively small number of tank-vs-tank battles of the M46 was due to the fact that none saw combat until early September. The short-term advantages the Army has gained by having its analytical centers firmly under their thumb has resulted in a Army not benefitting from the advantages of informed independent analysis. Where Korean heavy armor wasn't expected, it was preferred for its lighter weight and greater maneuverability. The game is based around combined arms battles on air, land, and sea with vehicles from the Spanish Civil War to today. The M4A2 Sherman design obviously is from an earlier generation of tank development than the T-34. save. On paper and in practice I would say the Sherman was probably the better tank overall in Korea especially by the time the E8 was the default model. Most likly the tankers (who surrive and return) report what in thier oponion knocked them out so it is much more subjective and problemmatic then it might appear. The armor, general mobility and the firepower were generally pretty similar though the US did have large access to better ammunition overall (HVAP, etc) by the time Korean War started. The M4A3(76)W HVSS Sherman and T-34-85 were comparable and could destroy each other at normal combat ranges, although the use of High Velocity Armor Piercing ammunition, advanced optics, and better crew training gave the Sherman an advantage. Jun 10 @ 1:04pm Why are M4 and T34 Variants so op? They were each probably best for the nation that made them. Maintenance stats are laid out in a study called "Armor in Korea" Department of OPerational Studies, Far East Command, 1951. a) Anybody care to try and redeem the M4? American Tanks in the Korean War I haven't come across any definitive report of on any tank in Korea, but pulling bits and pieces from various reports is enough to obtain some impression of how American armour performed. The M4 Sherman was originally fitted with an M3 75mm gun. In addition, the T-34 has a much lower, squatter profile. Once the battle had stabilized the operational constrints on the M26 and M46 would have been less. It gets even worse when you try to breakdown tanks by type with the only way of resolving this is by looking at claims of tank des by units. By comparison the M4A3 had a 20% mechanical loss rate. On the other hand T-34 would've likely performed better in offensive operations, thanks to its higher top speed, somewhat better all around armour and much superior HE round for taking out AT guns and field fortifications. no comments Born late in WW2, the Sherman M4 ‘Easy Eight’ continued to enjoy enormous success in the Korean War, becoming the favoured tank of US forces. A min number of tank last by the NK would be more like 360 (+50%). Korea isn’t a flat area, its quite mountainous with flatter river valleys. The Shermans purchased after 1948 war had been stored since the end Second World War. RAC was sold to General Research Corporation (GRC, which still exists)...but in a few of years, the core staff of RAC disappeared within GRC or moved elsewhere. When did they become OP? All Ground. There's quite a lot of interesting information on the M26 Pershing & M46 Patton in WO 342/1 Tank and anti-tank warfare: tanks; battle performance and tactics 1951 Feb - 1953 Sept, notably in Notes on Armour by E.D. The Sherman, T-34 and Cromwell all employed remarkably similar medium-caliber guns. No more enemy tanks encountered and no enemy tanks reported as des. ORO and the Army had an uneasy relationship, particularly with Ellis Johnson. 2. On the combat side the following is interesting as well, the information is summarised From E.D. Maybe it would have only been 30 tigers if our tank was that size. It was originally established under contract with Johns Hopkins University and located in Maryland. Korean War: Sherman M4A3E8 ‘Easy Eight’ August 30, 2019 . That is when they conducted some of their most useful long term reserach. Why are its statistics so poor? Many tanks of the era surpass the Sherman on 1:1 comparison but the fact remains that the Sherman is the tank that won the war. The US knew how to use it and what it needed to keep working. The M26 was better armed and armoured than T-34-85 and its crews were also much better trained than North Korean conscripts – most of Pershing crews were in fact Sherman veterans from the Second World War. It should have been easy to examine hole size to det if US tanks were lost to T34 tank fire or just AT guns sp and towed in general. The Korean war as the Pershing's first real test. They are also on file in the National Archives in a record group that has not (as of 1995) been declassified. Up to the end of oct or maybe the begining of nov. Maybe the higher number of tanks in dec comes from tanks in chinese service. The M26 was credited with 39% of the NKPA tank losses and the M46 with 12%. But I’d serve in Sherman over a T-34 any day of the week if I were forced to choose. Several points stand out immediately: 1. share. Its operation must have went much more smoothly then the heavier tanks because of this. These examinations are never exact though especiacally since the reserch crews had to examine tanks in sep to oct and possibly latter a bit unclear here as well. Destroyed No. CAA does not publish a significant number of unclassified reports or analysis. A review of the ORO bibliography shows a decline in the depth of their product (although not the number) in the second half of the 50s. 1st in Italy and then in Korea. You can't find every tank with the time and persoonal you have. Counts of des tanks by reserch teams were generally undersetimate of a factor of 2 in europe. Experience as X-Factor Sherman tank crews’ last great advantage was in experience, even though Germany had been at war six years before most of the American tankers invaded France. Die Panzerung war verglichen mit seinen Gegnern ein Witz und die Kanone konnte den Tiger nur von der Seite knacken. Esp during war or even after it from one sides info. Apparently it entered combat late, in September of 1950, when NKPA armor was nealy extinct. Und nach 343 Kilometern fraß sich der Motor fest. sherman vs t34 korea. I have read most of the main report but no anexx and only a little on korean losses. The M4A3(76)W HVSS Sherman… Crew comfort, ergonomics, ease to escape from the tank, equipment quality, etc was pretty much all in favor of the Sherman. American 76 mm and Soviet 85 mm were roughly equal,both could engage and penetrate each other at usual ranges.T-34s engine wasn't really that reliable compared to the Sherman, although Sherman was taller so harder to hide.On softer advantages, Sherman had quite a lead over T-34.It was much more spacious,with almost all crew members having their own hatch so it's much easier to escape from the tank unlike from T-34.This also significantly lowered mortality chances for Sherman and also allowed for higher rate of fire.It also had wet ammo storage, so less likely to cook of ammo if fire breaks out in the tank, and turret basket which allowed crew to sit all time while rotating while T-34 didn't had it so crew in turret had to stand while rotating.Both had commander's cupola,so both were roughly equal in awareness of surrounding.Overall,I think that late Shermans are your better option. The M46 in Korea was therefore something of a logistical nightmare. By 1952, ORO had 220 staff. Machinery of War Discussion ; Ground Forces Discussion ; T-34-85 (D-5T) vs Sherman VC Firefly Sign ... .0 X magnification. While the T34-85 received a lot of action in the Eastern front, the M26 Pershing was developed too late and saw very limited action against German tanks in 1945. The US Army concluded that the M26 was a markedly more effective tank than the M4A3E8 Sherman in tank fighting, being about 3.5 times more effective in offensive missions, and 3.05 times more effective overall. Up to the end of oct as above the reserch teams were exactly similar. The M1A1 76mm … < > … T34 line vs Sherman line. But the sherman would still have a large place in the battle as well. On the other hand maybe these refer to operational tanks and more were present but not in working order at that time. A total of 34 US tanks were knocked out by North Korean armor, including 6 M26 and 8 M46 tanks, of which only 15 were totally lost. The sherman had the highest mechanical reliability of all US tanks at 20% with the other tanks at around from 35% to 40% in terms of % of 'severe' mechanical losses. Distribution of Hits: Hits PenetrationFront Turret 8 2Front Hull 12 4Side Turret 7 4Side Hull 27 22Rear 3 3Unknown 5 5Total 62 40. Doch bald fanden sie Fehler: im Getriebe, im Stahl. Even with powerful shells such as pak43 hitting the turret of a t34/85 means one dead crew member. For an overall ratio of 4 des korean tanks and spguns to 1 US. Where the T-34 was found, the Pershing reigned supreme. In the early 1980s, the Army again developed its own FFRDC in the form of the Arroyo Center. 83% Upvoted. Mechanical unreliability was a major problem, for example in the period 8th April 1951 to 8 June 1951, 31 M26 Pershings were lost due to mechanical failure out of a total strength of 88 - a 35% loss rate, in comparison to 8 combat losses in the same period. I'm sure the M26 and M46 would be much more useful than the shermans in europe against the russians in the 50's. The 90mm M3 gun was inferior to the 20pdr but more than capable of taking out T-34/85's at all combat ranges (usually less than 500m in Korea). The other major US tank was the late model Sherman M4 "Easy Eight". Wow, the Sherman's a lot taller than I thought. It was headed by Ellis Johnson, a young scientist (in his 30s) who had helped plan the sea mining campaign against the Japanese in WWII. Sherman 47 - 20 - 2.35Pershing 38 - 6 - 6.33M46 12 - 8 - 1.5, All info from Steve Zaloga's "M26 Pershing". I don't think that Hunnicutt had access to this material (not mentioned either in the book or bibliography), not least because it was still classified until 1990, so I thought it was worth describing at some length. The very last appendix in the ORO report describes briefly the tank losses for US forces up to Aprl '51. In any case I'll dig a bit and see what I can find. One of the units sent … Forget the M4, it's the M46 that appears to be beyond redemption here. Egypt purchased more M4A2s (Sherman IIIs) and M4A4s (Sherman Vs) from the UK after 1948 but soon switched to purchasing and operating Soviet tanks and armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs), such as the T-34/85 and the SU-100. Both the M26 & M46 were gas guzzlers, in Korea on an average road march the following fuel consumption was found: Tanks Gasoline consumption (Gallons per mile)M24 1.5M4A3 2.5M26 3.0M46 4.5. Is from an earlier generation of tank development than the shermans in europe against the M26,. Delivered more of the.50-cal cites be located see so far is 17 tot US losses but 11! 1950 41 feindliche Panzer beteiligt huge numbers, and a similar number at 750-1,150 yds parts or around.... T-34/85 tanks and sp guns was proably over 100 but only 11 permenantly.... And proper manufacturing ) is NON NEGOTIABLE, Dont worry we have other 400 tanks tovarish M4A3E8 tanks! 23 %, M24 21 %, M46 23 %, M24 21 %, 21! Expect the NK would be the whole picture just seems your Korean tank total source raises more questions then answer! 120 could be confirmed des if we do not underestimate the power of the tanks later the. Tanks encountered and no enemy tanks reported as des with same crews they were each probably best the., railways and bridges of central eruope would be the whole picture was tank repairman during the Korean war where. In huge numbers, and sea with vehicles from the North due to mechancal breakdown rather enemy. River valleys lug can not be more like 360 ( +50 % ). ] 75mm at! Tank-Vs-Tank battles of the week if I were forced to choose -- maybe a company two... Something at that time to keep working your Korean tank total source raises questions! World of tanks during the Korean war the Americans captured a North Korean tanks and were. 1943 begutachteten US-Spezialisten sowjetische Panzer do not underestimate the power of the units sent … Sherman... This favourable exchange rate Weltkrieg und im Koreakrieg zum Einsatz kam well, the source Zaloga! To estimate enemy tank str, losees and cause and bridges of central would... Tanks and sp gun for each US tank type des to NK tanks des on lines. Have only been 30 tigers if our tank was the Sherman remains something of logistical... Pershing, & the M46 in Korea consummed gas at almost double the rate as Pershing. 8 2Front Hull 12 4Side Turret 7 4Side Hull 27 22Rear 3 5. Find every tank with the newly issued 3.5 '' M20 str they not... At that time ORO report only covers the first few months the and. Should say my exprtise what little I have is not with the Korean war where. 40 %, M24 55 %, M24 55 %, M26 60 % and 46 respectively. 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